CG: So…Cindy Dick, I understand that you have the largest collection of vintage women’s sports cards in the world. That’s amazing. I see that you refer to your collection as “Tiny Treasures, Giant Legends.”  How did you come up with that?
 
CD: I first must clarify that I think it’s the largest.  I currently own close to 1,100 original cards between the 1850’s and 1972. The cards also have to be printed around the time the athlete competed.  I tell myself that there has to be a finite limit but even after 23 years of collecting, I keep finding cards I’ve never seen before! I’ve never run across another collector with a similar collection anywhere near this size so I say it with some confidence, but can’t say it unequivocally. 
 
I have two goals for the collection; a book and a museum show so I needed a name for the collection.  After mulling the options over with friends, “Tiny Treasures, Giant Legends” was born a few years ago.  The name encompasses what they represent in four words.  The cards are tiny.  Most are smaller than a credit card. Finding them is like a treasure hunt, and they are also treasures of history.  These were the best athletes of their day.  Many were giant legends in the world of women’s sports. Some were the grandmothers of women’s sports, establishing rules and leagues.  Because of these women, we are blessed to have the opportunities we have today.

CG: When did you start collecting, and what was it that got you started.

 CD: I had some baseball cards as a kid – even had a Hank Aaron card but sold them all before I was 10.  I didn’t do anything with cards for 20 years.  Finding a women’s card was a complete accident.  I was at a yard sale in Virginia around 1993 and this little boy was selling his sports cards.  I glanced at the cards on the table and was shocked to see a woman’s card!  I’ve always loved visual images of women in sports so this caught my attention.  It took me a while to define the collection’s time frame of pre-Title IX (1972) cards but now that’s pretty much all I collect. 
 
CG: Can you remember your first card?

CD: I joke that you never forget your first one.  Manon Rhéaume was the card at the yard sale.  She was a Canadian minor league ice hockey goalie.  She also had the same appeal as Danica Patrick (read, she was pretty) and between those two factors, there were great hopes that she would break into the professional league and become a hockey phenom.  Card companies made many different cards of her.

CG: So why women’s sports cards?

CD: I love images.  A picture is so powerful, and with trading cards, the magic is that you can hold your hero in your hand.  And they are neat because they have infiltrated the world of men’s sports cards.  I focus on cards and not stamps, posters, postcards, etc. because trading cards were meant to be collected and traded.  Most cards were made to be sturdier than the other forms mentioned because they were created as a collectible.  I like the older ones because they are rare and hard to find (unlike contemporary cards today) and I enjoy the challenge of finding them.  And, financially, it also keeps me focused.  These trading cards are also artistically beautiful.  I started by only buying cards that used photographs because that showed that the athlete actually was competing. But then I grew to love the lithographs, drawings, caricatures, hand painted cards…all the different styles that were used in the vintage cards. 
 
CG: And if I can get a little personal here… what about you?  What’s your sports history…? Should we have a card for you?

CD:   Lol!  No. I had Olympic aspirations but my talent wasn’t at the same level as my dreams.  I ran track in HS and played college volleyball.  Today, I am an avid cyclist and I swim.

CG:What’s the history of the marketing of these? And were the women’s cards marketed the same as the men’s?
 
CD: Trading cards were initially known as “tobacco cards” in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century.  When cigarette packs were first made, they were floppy so the manufacturers inserted a blank piece of cardboard to keep them stiff.  Marketers quickly realized that blank space was marketing space so every topic under the sun is pictured on tobacco cards.  Athletes were one of the subjects and became one of the more popular ones to collect.  These are, therefore, the predecessors of the sports cards we know today.  When women were on tobacco cards, they are mostly seen as movie stars or as ‘beauties’.  Seeing women as athletes flies against the ladylike image that society pushed on women back then.    
 
While most of my cards are tobacco cards, some were distributed with chewing gum, chocolate, shoe polish, margarine, and even a piano!  What puzzles me is that it was not fashionable for women to smoke before the 1920’s.  So I have to wonder, who were they marketing to by adding female athletes?  I’ve asked some card aficionados why manufacturers would include female athletes and the answer is always, “Because they were a novelty.” 
 
The neat thing about the cards back then is that the images do not sexualize the women.  They are athletes.  Today, there is a lot of discussion and research about how women are portrayed in the media so it’s refreshing to see that the majority of these images portray the women for what they were – athletes.

CG: And about collecting…  You began to collect several years before the internet. How did you collect in the early days, and how did that change with the internet?
 
CD:  In the 1990’s I started by asking sports card dealers at shows and stores if they had women’s cards.  Dealers sell what sells so once they knew I was interested they started holding them for me.  They would sometimes even give them to me for free because to them, they didn’t have value.  At card shows, upon asking, I’d often get that blank, puzzled look as if I just asked them something that they had never heard before.

Sometimes they would have a card or two, and sometimes I was even told, “I have coaches wives” or “I have cheerleaders.” This was before eBay became a household name, the WNBA was still a dream, and before women’s soccer exploded.  One by one, I learned of sets where women’s cards were inserted into a men’s sets because women were rarely sold as a set of their own.  After a little while, and armed with knowledge, I'd ask the seller if he had women’s cards. If he said “no” I’d ask if he had ‘x, y, and z’ sets.  He’d pull out the boxes of cards and I’d leave with a stack of women’s cards. I started to get a good collection of contemporary cards…and then I came across my first vintage card and that one card changed my focus. 
 
The Internet opened the world of collecting and at the same time, that accessibility also closed many bricks and mortar card stores. The cards in my collection were printed in 25 countries around the world.  The main challenge with buying over the Internet is trusting that it’s an original card and not a reproduction, while praying it doesn’t get lost in the mail!  

CG: The “baseball cards” of my youth, about men, of course, were pretty much all sports statistics.  But I understand that this is not true about your cards. What are some of the most memorable “factoids” that you have gleaned from your cards?
 
CD:  Yes, I love the stories and language used on the backs of these cards.  My uncle translated the German cards, and he kept coming across the phrase “Olympia of Grace” in German.  We looked it up and discovered there was a women’s only Olympics hosted in 1931 in Italy!  I had NEVER heard of this before.  It was not sanctioned by the International Olympic Committee and Americans did not compete in it, but it did have an impact on the Olympics thereafter.  Italy was a fascist country then and the games were allowed because of the belief that “strong women made strong babies,” so it was acceptable for women to be athletes, as long as they didn’t forget their main purpose in life; being a mother. 
 
With the swimming cards I noticed that the images never showed the athletes wearing goggles so I asked former Olympian and world record holder, Misty Hyman, and she said that goggles weren’t used until the 1960’s.  When I look back at records and distances swam, understanding this gave the times context; knowing that the swimmers could only swim as long as their eyes could withstand the chlorine or salt water. 
 
I learned that women boxed in the 1880’s thanks to the card of Hattie Stewart. Her card is significant because the illustration shows her as both bare-fisted and wearing gloves.  The card is from 1888 and that’s the time of transition between when women boxed bare-fisted, and sometimes even bare-breasted, to the rules boxing recognizes today. 
 
I’ve learned about more stories than I can mention here.  These cards are a perfect way for me to do my own history research with each card I find.  They’ve made learning about history fun!

CG: Talk about the women of color cards in your collection… Who was the earliest one?

CD:  This is an important point.  I like to say that it’s important to acknowledge the women portrayed on these cards, and it’s equally important to acknowledge the ones that weren’t.  Sports, as a microcosm of society, were beholden to the racist beliefs of the times; therefore the collection is mostly of white women.  Financially, it was a luxury to be able to compete, travel, and tour, but the biggest barrier was to be allowed to compete – many women of color were not selected, even if they were of equal or better ability than their competition, when trying out for teams.  
 
My oldest card portrays Kinue Hitomi, a Japanese runner from the 1928 Olympics.  She was the first female medalist from Japan, but she medaled in a sport that she didn’t even train for!  She was a sprinter (100m) and a field specialist.  1928 was the first time the 800m run was offered to women (two laps around a track) and the officials asked who would like to join the race.  She did and she came in second place, earning a Silver medal.  Two side stories – the 800m run did not return to the Olympics for women until 1960 and sadly, Hitomi died two years after her Olympic debut. 
 
African American women from the US don’t appear on cards until 1960.  Wilma Rudolph has several cards, and I have one rare card that was printed in Greece of American Earlene Brown, a Bronze medalist who broke the 50-foot barrier in shot put.   Unfortunately, I’ve never seen a card of Alice Coachman; the first African American to win a gold medal in the 1948 Olympics in high jump.  There have been cards made of her jump decades after the fact.   

CD:  Babe was a force to be reckoned with!  As you know, she endured awful comments from the press because her sheer athletic ability, and her boyish appearance challenged what it meant to be female. But she had some admirers too. She pushed the barriers of women in sports and inspired countless young girls to be like her.   Ironically, Babe’s card is one of the first vintage cards I heard of.  She was my inspiration as a young girl, so, as an adult, I had to have that card.  Because it is part of an American set (Goudey Sport Kings, 1933), and because all the other athletes, except for Babe and Helene Madison (swimmer) are men, the card is expensive if it’s in good condition. I finally won it in an auction and it's one of my most treasured cards.  I have many cards of Babe from different countries: U.S., Germany, Italy, and Holland.   I’ve never seen a card of her playing golf that was printed in the time that she played (she was one of the 13 co-founders of the LPGA in 1950 and she died in 1956).

CG: So… getting the word out about these “Tiny Treasures…”  What are your plans? I see that the Phoenix Art Museum is doing a display of men’s cards. Are you trying to get these into museums?  What about touring into schools?  Internet presence?

I would love to see these in a museum show!  In 2012, the MET hosted an exhibit called “A Sport for Every Girl” but their collection showed mostly cards of illustrations of women playing sports, or women that were dressed as baseball players but were actually the gals that rolled the cigarettes.  Using the MET’s credibility as justification for a show, about a year ago I sent the Phoenix Art Museum a proposal.  The significant difference of my collection is that most of my cards are of actual athletes.  PAM declined.  About a month ago, PAM opened the “Ultimate Baseball Collection” which is a premier collection from the Arizona Diamondbacks.  It was disappointing to see that the women weren’t considered but it was their business decision. 
 
I have been approached by the Women’s Museum of California for an upcoming show about women in sports.  I would love to see this collection in the National Women History Museum in Washington, D.C. as well.  I don’t expect a museum to show all 1,100 cards but it would send an impressive visual message to see so many women being athletes and loving sports since the 1850’s!  I’ve also been asked to give some talks locally by the people that watched the Ignite Phoenix presentation. 
 
CG: What can we do to support your work?

As a follow-up to the Ignite Phoenix video, I created a video to help show that there is interest for a collection of this nature.  It’s hard to sell someone something that they don’t know exists…but if there’s interest, well, many voices are always stronger than one.  Also, I’m looking for a publisher that would be interested in this type of history/collectible/women’s sports book if any of your readers can suggest a good fit.  Most sports books are about men and all trading card books are of men so it’s hard to identify a publisher that would understand the importance of these cards.  If you enjoy vintage women’s sports items, please visit the On Her Mark  website. The funds allow us to do what we do and honor women’s sports history, one great story at a time.     

CG: I'm very happy that you have translated and are producing my play, The Second Coming of Joan of Arc, in Beijing. I was just reading about your play The Rabbit Hole... a lesbian revisioning of Alice in Wonderland. Was that your first attempt to produce a lesbian play in Beijing? How was it received?
 
San: Yes, The Rabbit Hole was my debut as a playwright of drama. I wrote some fictions and fairy tales before, but I always want to write something about lesbians in China, their lives, their love, their living conditions and so on. In 2010, LES+ had publicly staged the first lesbian drama in China, which called The Tower of Joy and Sorrow. This play attracted many attentions of audiences and media in China, from then we found the stage performances is a really good way to show ourselves besides publishing magazine. So I wrote this play and took it onto stage in Beijing earlier this year. Different with our first try on stage, I put some magical realism elements in this play, many audiences said this play is more than lesbians life only. And this time, we attracted many male audiences to watch. I was really surprised about this at first, but afterwards I was really happy about this, because this is what we want, let more people to see us.

CG: How did you find my play and what made you want to produce it?
 
San: It was a really wonderful experience for me to find your play! As I just mentioned, to show lesbians’ life in the form of drama is started very late in China. We lack of experience, lack of funds, and lack of actors…So when I committed to devote into this, I constantly collect a variety of advanced foreign experiences and the classic lesbian scripts to learn more. Then, I found you! Thanks to the internet. You and your plays really inspired me, especially The Second Coming of Joan of Arc. The first time I saw this play, (I brought it form LuLu.com), and I told myself that you should introduce this play to China. Lucy for me, your generous authorization makes all this happened.
 
CG: There are many Western references in the play (for instance, to The Wizard of Oz). How did you handle those?
 
San: Actually, the story of Joan of Arc was good known in China. I think this is mainly because the spread of several classic movies of Joan of Arc. When I do the translation, I studied a lot of information, minimize the difficulties of understanding due to cultural differences. However, the core of this play is not about the differences from Eastern and Western cultures, it’s about the circumstances that we face together.

CG: I understand you have been editing LES+, a lesbian magazine in Mandarin, since 2008. Is this the only lesbian magazine?  Do you have any problems with censorship?
 
San: LES+ is the only paper published lesbian magazine in Mainland China until now. There are few other electronic lesbian magazines, but they only transmitted through the internet. Paper publishing has brought us some financial pressure, but we insist on it, in order to retain this position. Due to the publication censorship in China, We have no publicly released qualifications so far, which means our magazine is underground publish. We sold our magazines in coffee shop, activity center, regional agency point and the online store. We still hold on, we believe that one day it will change.
 
C: What is the legal status of lesbians in China?
 
San: It’s really a complicated issue…Well, we still have no right to get married, and the law does not recognize same-sex relationship. This leads to many same-sex relationship problems, due to the lack of legal protection. In fact, there are also some problems within the LGBT community. When Chinese people mentioned homosexuality, they can only think of gay, but not the lesbian. This is mainly due to the lack of sound of lesbians. We are working hard to change this situation. And we can also see the situation is truly into a better direction.

CG: Have you had experiences personally with censorship or discrimination as a lesbian?
 
San: Lesbians in China of my generation are very different from our previous generation. China is richer, more confident, and more open. So generally, we do not receive a violent discrimination, (except some outlying poor areas, where violence and discrimination are still serious), but discrimination we receive is more intimate, such as discrimination in employment, discrimination at work etc. I had experienced the discrimination in employment before myself. The employer eventually hired a sweet girl who is always wearing a skirt but not me, and the boss told me directly they need a real girl with nice dress to obtain customers favor. I think this itself is discrimination and oppression against women.
 
CG: And.... finally... anything else you want to share with a lesbian-feminist readership here in the US and Canada??
 
San: The voice of lesbians in China is still very weak. Many people turn a blind eye to us; ignore our needs and callings, even including our own parents. Now, more and more of us have recognized this, and we working hard to try to change all this. We are doing everything you have done, and we believe our future will be what you have now been or even better. And we will be so glad if you can pay attention to us, encourage us, and support us. Because as you may already know, we are a family.

San's Mandarin translation of The Second Coming of Joan of Arc,  贞德再临_中文 is available online as a PDF download, or paperback.

Intimate Wars is more than an autobiography. As the subtitle reads, it is “The Life and Times of the Woman Who Brought Abortion from the Back Alley to the Boardroom.”  It might also read, “and Who Has Continued The Fight For Four Decades.”

The woman is Merle Hoffman, who established Choices Women’s Medical Center shortly after New York legalized abortion in 1971—two years before Roe v. Wade. Abortion, unlike many other issues taken up by Second Wave feminists, remains as hotly contested and as much of a political football as it was back in the day. 

Hoffman’s book is, frankly, a page-turner. She has not held back from revealing her personal story—one that is fraught with the kinds of contradictions that made for good drama. She unflinchingly documents an era and a battle that have been controversial even among the ranks of activists. And she does something else that this reader found to be of enormous value. She models the attitudes and strategies it takes to win against a formidable adversary. She talks about the deep work, the transformational work necessary to bring about social change, even as she shares the details of her public campaigns.

CG: In your book, you wrote about how “women’s health needed a reformation” and how this realization led you to draft a patient’s bill of rights… which ended up being torn off the clinic walls by doctors. Do you feel that women today are more aware of our  rights when we enter the medical system… or has the tremendous erosion of social services rendered us more compliant?

MH: In a sense I believe that Patient Power is more important now than ever.  At the time I was calling for a Reformation there was practically no medical information available to patients (mainly women). The language was one that only doctors could understand and this medical language contributed to women remaining passive consumers of their own health care.

I wanted women to be able to understand in plain English what treatment was being proposed, what risks were involved and if there were any options.

Now with the Internet, medical information is available to almost anyone anywhere at any time enabling individual patients to become more assertive—but patients as a class face an even more intractable challenge which is the fact that the doctors are not virtually available.  With the ever rising numbers of the uninsured, the consistent attacks on any government funding to assist the poor, and the egregious escalation of the attack on reproductive rights, women as patients are in an even more precarious situation.

And what is required to make real change to address an inequitable and profit driven health care system is collective action.

CG: What was so refreshing about the book was your absolutely uncompromising honesty about a subject that is often uncomfortable even for supporters. This was one of the (many) passages I highlighted:

"… attempting to simplify the issue, refusing to look at the consequences or true nature of abortion—the blood, the observable parts of the fetus, the irrevocable endings, the power of deciding  whether or not to bring a new life into this world—reduces our capacity  to register the depth of this issue and disrespects the profound political and social struggle women’s choices engender in our society."

CG: How do you deal with the fact that this is the sensationalized focus of anti-abortion groups?

MH: Head on—I acknowledge that abortion is the termination of potential life—and reinforce that it is the individual woman who has the legal moral and ethical responsibility to make that decision. Reproductive justice is a human right—and the denial of rational moral agency to women deprives them of their humanity.

CG: In your book, you talk about the tactics of anti-abortion activists and the need for abortion rights activists to be as visible and as vocal. One of the brilliant actions you organized with the New York Pro-Choice Coalition was a press conference held literally in a back alley, effectively making the point that banning abortions will only drive them underground. Do you feel that there is a need for more of this kind of grassroots activism, or in 2011 has the issue moved to lobbyists and politicians?

MH: Women have to come out of the closet on this issue—in all the years since I have been fighting this issue—admitting that one has had an abortion still remains difficult. It has not become any easier to have abortion without apology. The first action has to be in each individual woman’s heart and mind—to accept her choice as a “mothers act” and bond with all other women struggle to make their own choices. One march-one action is not enough—it can be great theater—but this issue requires a revolution of consciousness—and individual psychological courage.

CG: In your chapter, “The Loaded Gun,” you discuss your work to empower patients in situations involving domestic violence, and how this work translated to your own response to the growing terrorism directed against abortion providers. You talk about the deep social conditioning of women to respond as victims. I see a Catch-22 dilemma here: How can women who do not feel biologically entitled muster the attitude of resistance necessary to defend that entitlement?

MH: See above—which is why each one of us has the responsibility of being soldiers in this battle—and why this war is “Intimate”—because we have to fight it within ourselves—we have to fight the enemy who has outposts in our heads and hearts.

CG: I appreciated your clarity about the roots of the struggle: “As long as people see abortion as immoral, its legality will be in danger.” This obviously is going to take more than legislation. How can we fight and how can we win that battle when liberals lack the monolithic machinery of the so-called Religious Right?

MH: Position the issue in terms of Reproductive Justice and Human Rights—once again-work on women accepting their power as mothers--work in coalition with other human rights struggles--it will take a long time—which is why I always see this as a generational struggle and do not allow myself to become despairing or depressed about the ebbs and flows of the battles—I am grateful to be part of the struggle (can’t say I am not getting tired though!)

Footnote: Merle Hoffman is also the editor of On the Issues: A Magazine of Feminist, Progressive Thinking. The theme of the Winter 2012 issue is abortion.

This interview is part of the “We’Moon Anthology Blog Tour.” What’s that? Well, We’Moon has just published a 30-year anniversary anthology titled In the Spirit of We’Moon ~ Celebrating 30 Years: An Anthology of We’Moon Art and Writing. This anthology includes the work of many of the authors who have contributed to their internationally acclaimed We'Moon Daybooks for the last three decades. They have invited some of us contributorss who have our own blogs to interview each other and then post these interviews on the blogs, which will be linked to their website.  An “anthology blog tour,” right?

 It was my great good fortune to be invited to interview We’Moon contributor Marna… so here goes:

Carolyn: What has been your connection with We’Moon?

Marna: I lived at We’Moon [We’Moon Land in Estacada, Oregon] from ‘92-’93, and helped produce the ‘92 and ‘93 calendars. My work has probably appeared in over a dozen We’Moons [daybooks] since, including this year for which I was honored to be invited to write the holy day writings. We’Moon [daybook] has been a great inspiration for my creative work, knowing that it was going out directly to other womyn and weaving into their lives.

Carolyn: What was it like living on the We’Moon Land?

Marna: I learned about solar and lunar rhythms… due to a donated library of astrology materials from Marcia Patrick from when she lived there. (She was one of the 13 womyn who cursed Wall Street back in the Second Wave.) … So many seeds of my current work and scholarship and spiritual practice are sourced in my We’Moon experience! I learned so much from living in intentional community with other woms, and had creative space to garden collaboratively, learn herbal medicine and gardening, cultivate relationships with the living ecologies and life of the land, a real opening experience! The womyn’s land movement and womyn’s earth-based spiritually have pivotally informed my work and life, inspiring us here in Portland [Oregon] to create for thirteen years a Womyn’s Temple and now inspiring me to heed the call to cultivate a land-based campus with sacred herb gardens, a Hygeian dream healing center, and designing certificate and eventually graduate programs weaving together earth-inspired (ecological) creativity, healing, and hands-on skills in service of earth regeneration.

Carolyn: Wow… Is there information about your work online?

Marna: Probably the more relevant website related to We’Moon is the work I am doing with  Moonifest, a micro-grant nonprofit for women, the arts, and Earth regeneration. Also the graduate institute at the intersection of ecology, creativity, and wisdom traditions I am designing as my doctoral project in Sustainability Education .

Carolyn: That’s a fascinating idea… offering grants of $130, and asking applicants how many of them they need. As a playwright who has often needed to produce my own work, I can confirm how much mileage a motivated artist can gain with just a little financial support. Sometimes, for me, the isolation was as large an impediment as the lack of funds. Getting a grant was kind of like being alone on a life raft and being signaled to by a passing ship. It was a comfort to know that I had been seen, that someone out there was aware of my coordinates. It helped me to know that someone would be coming eventually.  So, what about your second website?

Marna: It has two related informational websites, one related to Gaian Methodologies for research inspired by the living presence of the planet, and one I just developed last winter on Earth Empathy, which offers experiential learning adventures in cultivating planetary compassion (with riffs on spirit of place, body/planet, despair and justice work, and deep time). I am in the midst of developing a resource web page on feminist pedagogy and women's collaborations (Gynagogy), which will be released later in this summer.

Carolyn: I see your “Earth Empathy” site has a page titled “Hope,” where you link to a video of Joanna Macy, where she says, “… recognize that the anguish, the horror even, that we can feel over the devastation that we read about or see or experience—that it’s okay to feel that. We're tough. Because if we are afraid to feel that, we won't feel where it comes from, and where it comes from is love—our love for this world.” This is an issue I’m struggling with right now… the sense of becoming overwhelmed, especially with the situation of Fukushima… There is such a temptation to resort to denial or diversion. Your hope and your activism give me hope. Is there anything else you would like to add?

Marna: What I can offer about my experience both with We'Moon, the land and the Almanac, as well as my experience with the extended womyn's land communities, is to praise the deep fount of strength and nurture they have provided for my spiritual-ecological wholeness and deepening. The newly published We'Moon Anthology is a portal to the song streams of so many womyn artists and writers, sustaining us in hope and justice, what Joanna Macy refers to as the work of the hands, head and heart of the Great Turning. May we each receive this nurture and continue to weave these cultures of regeneration and inspiration and be woven by the spiral thriving of planetary Gaia herself. I look forward to celebrating the sixtieth anthology in another thirty years, 390 lunar cycles from now!